14 thoughts on “Arlene Silveira Seeks Comments on The Madison School District’s Proposed High School Redesign Process”

1. The continued used of the phrase “blank slate” is really beginning to get my goat! Friends — including Arlene … and Art, who introduced the term last week — we are NOT starting this process with a “blank slate.” How dare anyone say we are! It is an insult to the West HS community to use this phrase, and a complete denial of what we have been put through. To hear people talking about the need to look at the data, review the research, and have meaningful community input into a plan after we were denied all three is very, very painful.
   Again, I ask BOE members to please address the serious inequities that exist across our high schools. I also ask community members — both inside and outside the West attendance area — to make their feelings known and to join me in insisting on intervention at West.

2. The achievement gap begins in elementary school: 46% of black students score below grade level on the third grade reading test, but only 9% of the white students.
   The gap remains into high school: 49% of black 10th graders score below grade level in reading, while only 12% of the white students are at the minimal or basic levels.
   High school redesign begins with reading in K-3.
   Unfortunately, the superintendent thinks that the MMSD’s reading program succeeds for elementary students, so he refuses to use curricula that will raise performance. For example, the MMSD clings to expensive and ineffective Reading Recovery in first grade, while refusing to expand Read 180 which the district’s reading staff trumpeted for its success in upper grades.
   Equally unfortunate, previous boards and some current members insist that they have no role in curriculum issues.
   Hopefully, the task force on high school redesign will force the board to deal with curriculum.

3. I’d like to see the MMSD address the serious inequities between the high schools too. For instance, why, when cutting high school staff, must LaFollette and East absorb an equal number of staff cuts as West and Memorial, even though there are serious differences in the number of poor students at the four schools?
   Why do top tier universities refuse to interview and admit the top 5% of students at East, yet fawn over the same top 5% at West and Memorial? Their line is something akin to “West and Memorial provide a higher level of competition and, therefore, prepare their top students more ably than East and Lafollette can.”
   Why do East and Lafollette PALE in comparison to West and Memorial in numbers of National Merit Scholars? Ed is right, it starts in elementary school!

4. Unfortunately, it doesn’t start in elementary school. As a recent Sunday New York Times Magazine article pointed out, children from soicoeconomically underprivileged backgrounds frequently arrive in kindergarten already 1-2 years below their socioeconomically privileged age peers with respect to reading-readiness skills such as vocabulary size and ability to follow multistep directions. Clearly, to close the achievement gap, the MMSD needs to help these students to catch up by working intensively with them at the pre-school and early elementary grades. If the gap still exists for a subset of these students when they enter high school, it is highly unlikely to be closed by continuing for yet two more years, grades 9 and 10, the mainstreamed heterogeneous classes that have failed to close the gap for these students in grades K through 8.

5. Care to back up those assertions with some data, David?
   But your comments are useful in laying bare a rivalry among our high schools, indeed among our neighborhoods, whether imagined or real, whether mutual or one-sided, that needs addressing up front.

6. Yes, the poverty-based gap is well in place by kindergarten, for a variety of reasons. If you haven’t yet read Paul Tough’s article that appeared in the NYT Magazine last Sunday, I encourage you to do so now. It’s more than relevant to this discussion.
   http://www.schoolinfosystem.org/archives/2006/11/still_left_behi.php
   I came away wanting to talk with people about how we can provide our poor students some of what they need EARLY ON, in elementary school, so that they can catch up … but without, in so doing, neglecting the educational needs of our more advantaged students. That is really the crux of the dilemma for the MMSD. (It almost seems an easier problem to address when poverty is closer to 100%.)
   David, FWIW, I AM an admissions interviewer for a top tier university, one that still interviews every single applicant. Over the past almost 20 years, I have interviewed students from all four Madison high schools and Edgewood HS (not to mention an occasional U.W. student interested in transferring). The reality is that the students from those several schools are not equally impressive and accomplished. Though each may be a straight-A student, their ACT/SAT/AP scores may nevertheless vary widely.
   All of the top colleges will tell you that they do not penalize applicants from high schools that do not offer, say, AP or IB classes. They simply want to see that the person has taken advantage of the most challenging opportunities available to them at their own school, whatever those opportunities may be. The thing is, though, often students from those high schools don’t do as well on the SAT/ACT/AP’s because they truly aren’t as well prepared. In a sense, it’s the schools that penalize their own students … by having lower standards of excellence?
   Last year, I interviewed a LaFollette student with a GPA of 3.98, a Composite ACT score of 30, 4’s on two AP tests, and a 730 and 660 on two different SAT II tests. I also interviewed a West student with a Composite ACT score of 31. (I’m afraid I don’t have any other numeric data on that applicant at hand.) Neither one was admitted (nor did I think they should or would be, nice as they both were). This year, I have interviewed an early action applicant from Memorial who got a 780 on the SAT Reading test and a 780 on the SAT Math test, as well as two 800’s on SAT II tests and 5’s on four different AP tests. (The student is also relatively poor, speaks English as a second language, and belongs to a minority group, though one we typically do not call “minority” because the children do well in school.)
   These are real and meaningful differences in achievement, though not necessarily in capacity or potential. I remember wondering last year how the LaFollette student might have done had they gone to West or Memorial.

7. Joan: I’d be happy to ask the parents of those East students who called me to tell their tales if they’d care to share their personal stories with you..they don’t care to share them online. I asked them to post here, they demurred. Of course, any and all personal stories are just anecdotal evidence, right? Anecdotal evidence, however, is a pretty strong method of shaping community views, and it’s certainly done that in Madison over the years when it comes to our schools. The ACT scores don’t lie, the NMSF numbers don’t lie, neither do the WKCE scores nor the free and reduced hot lunch numbers.
   I, for one, don’t see the MMSD telling Northwestern University, for example, that if they want to interview at any high school in Madison, they have to interview at every high school in Madison.

8. I’d like to start by thanking Arlene Silveira for asking these questions and beginning a dialogue with the Madison community. For those folks interested in getting comments on this topic to School Board members, the email for all board members is: comments@madison.k12.wi.us.
   I thought an important point of the Board’s high school discussion was on strong elementary and middle school education in preparation for high school. I would hope as part of the process, high school teachers are asked to identify what the strengths of students coming into high school are as well as what are the weaknesses of high school students in various subject areas. Also, I hope the Board asks the UW what the strengths and weaknesses are of students entering the university and asks universities (other post-secondary institutions) what students must be prepared for when they get to college, technical school, other? Then I’d like to see this compared to what the district has and what the gaps are – as part of an initial assessment. I’m of course assuming teacher and parent involvement along the entire process not just in response to certain proposals.

9. There exist inequities within high schools as well as between. Which elementary and middle school one is launched from makes every bit as much difference in outcome as which high school one attends. West still offers a lot, even in its diminished form, to well-prepared students. But not everyone comes equally well-prepared, even among students from similar SES background.
   As I mentioned in an earlier post, Laurie Frost’s data on backgrounds of West National Merit students reveals that precious few went to Cherokee, even if one supposes that most come from middle-class backgrounds and even taking the relative sizes of the schools into account.
   Most come from Hamilton and private schools. Middle-class students do not get the same education at high-poverty schools as they do at low-poverty schools. This fall our elementary math coach stated openly at a meeting (he’s new at the job) that it isn’t just the low-SES kids at our school who are performing badly in math. Middle-class kids also are not performing as well as would be expected.
   This is not so apparent from viewing the easily accessed MMSD data. I’ll hazard a guess that with only 4 categories of test scores, it could be that kids are scoring in reasonable numbers as proficient and advanced, but scoring at the low end of these categories, not sure about this.
   In any case, David Rusk has noted this phenomenon in his study, although he speaks in terms of minorities, not SES. High %ages of minorities pull down scores of middle class kids. He hypothesizes that the reason for this is that at schools with high %age minorities, the middle class kids are often lower middle class, borderline poor. This is not the case at our school, but the effect is there nonetheless. It is common sense. The low-SES kids come poorly perpared to succeed in school. The schools don’t get enough extra resources to dig kids out of the hole they are in.
   Teachers spend more time than they should on behavior control and less on academics. Teachers need to worry most about the pulling up the lowest performing students, so the more able kids are left to languish while the level at which the class is taught is pulled down. Everyone senses this.
   We do need to focus on early elementary education to solve this problem, if it is solvable. A few lost kids may be pulled in with proper efforts at higher grades, but K and earlier is where it would be most fruitful. Meanwhile parents should be made aware that, regrettably, they really need to do a LOT of extra home-schooling at the end of the school day.

10. David: I, too, am a Madison-area interviewer of students applying to a specific elite college. I have been doing so for 15 years. Yes, most of the Madison-area students I see admitted to this extremely selective college attend Madison West, Madison Memorial or Middleton HS. Yes, I have even interviewed a Madison East HS student who had a 3.98 GPA taking East’s hardest courses and a 1,600 (out of 1,600) SAT score who was not admitted. I’ve also interviewed Madison West students with 4.00 GPAs, top test scores, outstanding extracurriculars, etc. who were also not admitted.
    My impression is that the extremely selective colleges are looking for students who are also truly exceptional in at least one field, not just among their own high school peers, but among their State, National, or, even, international age-peers. They desire students who are Intel Science Talent Search Finalists, International Olympiad Medalists, State or Nationally ranked musicians and athletes, published authors, etc. Students who are the best in their high school, but have not also gone beyond their high school to seek out and succeed in more challenging activities as well are usually not admitted to the top Ivies and their equivalents.
    Top Madison-area students hoping to attend the very top elite colleges need to be doing research with UW professors, competing in State and National-level science, math, music, athletic, or writing competitions, or doing other activities that document they excel in at least one field at the State or National level, not just within their local high school.

11. Things I’d like to see studied:
    (1) For advanced students—establish magnet school(s) or, better, magnet programs within each high school perhaps with particular emphases (arts, science).
    (2) Encouraging the top 20% of students to advance their studies through TAG programming, advanced or accelerated courses, honors courses, college credit, advanced placement. Pay particular attention to encouraging students of color and of lower socioeconomic status to advance their studies.
    (2) Coring 9th and 10th grades for students below the top 20%, but above the bottom 20%.
    (3) Close campus for all freshmen and sophomores. Open campus for juniors and senior who earn good grades and have good attendance.
    (4) The bottom 20% of 8th graders are probably not ready for high school. Establish programs in 9th and 10th grades that will address their academic deficiencies.

12. I have sometimes served as an alumni interviewer for a highly selective college too. I have linked a description of what the institution looks for in candidates for admission.
    http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/application/what.html
    I’ll highlight two items.
    1. Admission revolves around two key questions, which are who will make the best use of the university’s resources and who will contribute most significantly to the university community. Too often, I see academically strong applicants who have either not seriously engaged the idea of their contribution to the university community or who offer a laundry list of activities instead of passionate commitment to a few.
    2. “A very strong performance in a demanding college preparatory program may compensate for modest standardized test scores, but it is unlikely that high standardized test scores will persuade the Admissions Committee to disregard an undistinguished secondary-school record.” This is why parents of high achieving students look to districts for assurance that the local program is rigorous.
    It is very important that public schools prepare their most advanced students for admissions to highly selective institutions for reasons of equity and also the health of K-12 and higher education in America.
    Also, by definition, most high school students do not matriculate at highly selective institutions. It is very important that public schools help all students develop their potential to succeed in education, work, citizenship, and life beyond high school. We need to do much better at this, not only in Madison, but nationally. My hope is that the blank slate discussion isn’t just a second take at the last few years, but a comprehensive re-assessment of what kinds of high school programs best serve our students today.
    That having been said, as Janet, Ed, David and others have noted, high school is too late to close achievement gaps for most students. The critical years are in the pre-school and elementary school years. Even the best high school re-design stands on a foundation of sand unless students progress from their elementary years with strong basic skills in place.

13. “The low-SES kids come poorly perpared to succeed in school. The schools don’t get enough extra resources to dig kids out of the hole they are in.”
    Aren’t several Madison elementary schools SAGE schools? Don’t those SAGE dollars result in — relative to most districts in Dane County — noticeably lower class sizes? Hasn’t the SAGE program been around for at least a few years, so there might be some relevant data out there on SAGE vs. non-SAGE school/student performance on, e.g., state 3rd grade reading test scores? Hasn’t the state superintendent suggested that there has been some correlation between the SAGE program and test score improvements in recent years?
    I happen to think the SAGE program has the potential to be a worthy investment. But there is a very clear difference in teaching an elementary classroom of 12 to 15 students, compared to 20 to 25, which is commonplace throughout the rest of the county.

14. Also, are the curriculum and resources reaching/supporting kids’s learning over time?

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